In some parts of England, everywhere you
look, there are St. George's and Union
Jack flags. It's the ripple effect of
what started as a movement in the
Midlands. So, is this pride or
prejudice?
The Brickfields area of Worcester is
covered in flags. Carla's part of a
group putting them up.
>> It's all about bringing the communities
together. It's about love, peace, unity,
nothing to do with racism as people keep
stating, but this has brought people
out. Everyone's coming out and a lot
more people are voicing their opinions
now um obviously about illegal
immigration, undocumented males.
>> When you see all of these flags, all of
these St. George's flags around here,
can you understand why some people might
be a bit intimidated by that?
>> No,
>> not at all.
>> No. My true belief is if you're in
England, you should not be intimidated
and you should not
be insulted by the English flag. The
flag does have some connotations with
fairly extremist views and I think
that's where that comes from. That
potential fear of it. Do you recognize
that at all?
>> I understand what you're saying about
it, but our flags haven't been put up in
Worcester for anything to do with rac.
You see that? They might not, but that's
why we keep saying it on the page. I've
done so many posts, anyone following,
I've done on my personal Facebook, on
the page, the reasons behind why we're
doing it. And I I do understand why
people might think it's racist, but it's
not.
The Reform UK leader of Worersha County
Council says the flags can stay up.
Other local authorities, though, have
taken some down on grounds of safety.
There are differing approaches and
differing views, too. Do you think this
is a good thing? These flags popping up
in such big numbers?
>> Um,
>> not really. But why has it got to this
stage?
>> It's nice to see them up. It's It gives
you a good feeling. At the end of the
day, everybody's had enough. What's
going on?
>> Is it immigration?
>> Oh, I'm going to bring it up, but you
did. Yeah, we've had enough.
>> I think there is probably motives behind
it from certain people that are wrong. I
think if you're trying to enter the
country illegally, you know, it's it's
not right. I think maybe we've opened
the doors a little bit too much and
we're offering a little bit too much,
but at the end of the day, we're all
human.
>> It just makes me uncomfortable.
Nationalism in general, I'm not
comfortable with. It reminds me of um
Germany before the First World War.
>> Not a problem. Personally, it's not a
problem for me. No,
>> we're all patriotic. We're born and bred
here. Um, if it's for that reason and
we're proud of our country, that's
absolutely fine. But if there's any
other intent behind there that it's
having negative connotations, then
obviously
>> And which do you think it is?
>> I think it's the the letter.
>> The contested symbolism of these flags
goes back decades. Their reemergence
coincides with a wave of
anti-immigration protests over the
course of a heated summer. And if this
is about unity for some, for others it
translates to unease.
>> Well, joining me now to discuss this
further are Professor John Denham, a
former Labour minister who is now
director of the Center for English
identity and politics at the University
of Southampton and Kahinda Andrews, a
professor of black studies at Birmingham
City University. Uh, John Denham, do you
support people putting these flags up?
I
>> I think the point is that whatever the
motivations of people putting the flags
up, and some will be good and some will
be bad, what they're doing is putting up
flags that belong to all of us. And the
opinion poll is very clear in all
communities, far more people see these
flags, the St. George's Cross and the
Union flag, as belonging to everybody
than belonging to only a few people. So,
it's a very odd sort of protest because
I think the people putting the flags up
were hoping that other people would go
around and tear them down. In reality,
they're putting up symbols that belong
to all of us. We should all say, "Yeah,
these are our flags. These represent the
nation that we belong to. I see an
England flag." Meaning the sort of
diverse England football team we teams
we have at men and women's levels. We
don't have to assume the motives of the
people who put it up. So my view is in
we the position here even if it was the
far right behind this right the flags
stay up the far right loses. If we tear
them down the far right wins.
>> Kahinda Andrews you were shaking your
head. Why?
>> Well I mean that sounds nice in a in
fairy tale land but in reality we know
what these flags have been for. We know
and actually it's actually more
dangerous. Back in the day these were
you know EDL. It was National Front.
They were very clearly far right. And
what's actually happened now is the far
right has just become the mainstream.
We've just had re You had a a talk about
reform. You in the in the very video you
showed, what was it? Anti- it was in
immigration was the issue. There's a
long history of these flags being waved
to say keep Britain white. This is not
about inclusion. It's about exclusion.
And you cannot separate the asylum hotel
protest last summer with the racist
riots from this rash of flags. And I'm
sorry, they do not belong to us. You
poll black British people. You see that
St. George's Cross on a pub, you ain't
going in. That's today. This is
intimidation. And I spoke to many
people. So I'm in Birmingham. So
>> we have we have neighborhoods with these
flags everywhere and I'm not going down
there and I know many people who won't
go down there because we know what those
flags mean.
>> So Kahind Andrews, would you would you
tear those flags down? Just before I
bring back John Denham, would you tear
them down because John Denham said
you're giving the far right what they
want?
>> I think you have the council has to take
them down because they are this is very
clearly about intimidation. EDL I mean
when you got Britain first, the GB News
folk, the the far right, all these
saying yes, this is a great idea. It's
clearly something that should that can't
stand if we're saying that we're an
inclusive society. They have to come
down.
>> Okay. John Denham, it it does matter
what the motivation is, doesn't it?
>> If there are people behind some of these
campaigns who who allegedly have links
to the far right, that matters in
today's world of
>> of course it matters that there are
faright activists. But if you look, for
example, at the Asylum Hotel protests,
it's estimated that fewer than 10,000
people took place in those
demonstrations across the entire
country. The far right are not the
country. If we say that the national
flags belong to the far right and we
won't fly them, we're giving a tiny
minority of people control over our
national symbols. And Kahinda is
actually wrong. The evidence of polling
is not that most people reject these
flags. Not most black and minority
ethnic people reject these flags. Yes,
there are some who are ambivalent about
it. Yes, there are circumstances in
which they're threatening, but it simply
is not the case that most people reject
them. And I would say why hand the
fascists a victory by pulling the flags
down when by keeping them up indeed
putting up more flags we defeat them.
>> Kahinda
>> take take that point then. I mean the
the the message of the flag is not
defined by a minority.
>> Well no I think this is the biggest
point about this one. I'd question the
poll and you can get a poll to you can
find probably find a poll to tell you
whatever you want. But the actual bigger
issue here isn't about the far right.
It's about what these flags represent.
Both of those flags were the flags that
were sailed on ships which enslaved my
ancestors. That was a flag of which the
British army waved when they colonized
24% of the world. We actually live in a
society which is deeply unequal. The
asylum protest is one thing but like you
look at inequality and housing etc etc.
Britain isn't this great wonderful
multicultural country. It's a country
steeped in racism and those flags
represent that racism which is why the
far right picked them up and start
waving them. It's not
>> but it may represent something else
gahinder to an awful lot of people. I
mean England is a big country and
there's a lot of people who wouldn't see
the flag in that way surely.
>> Yeah. But this is the problem. We
haven't what Britain hasn't done is
dealt with the impact of empire. Even on
the immigration question, why are there
so many black and brown people in this
country? We are here because you were
there. Like I'm only in this country
because somebody like literally it's my
family colonizing in the Caribbean. And
we haven't actually dealt with this
issue and said what how do we have a
broad inclusive presence and waving
around is
>> that's an argument that's an argument
about how we tell our history how we
tell the bits of the history which we've
suppressed for ages. It's not an
argument about the flag. If we put
ourselves in a position where the only
people who are allowed to fly the flag
are the far right because everybody else
says we won't want to go with it. Two
things will happen. One is most people
lose their flag. Secondly, the far right
will turn around to the great majority
people who are proud and patriotic and
enjoy the flags and they will say there
you are then. There you are John Den
speak for you the people.
>> Yeah.
>> Does it not matter how this happened?
The context in which this happened. This
didn't come out of nowhere. It came out
of the asylum protest in which people
were wrapping themselves in the flag.
>> Absolutely. And what we're in involved
in at the moment is a fundamental debate
about the nature of the nation that we
belong to and whether we are a nation
that is welcoming and inclusive and
accepts diversity and those flags
represent those values. So yes, don't
underestimate the importance of this mo
moment. This is a moment where we're
deciding where we want to go as a
nation. But actually rejecting our
national flags and saying they stand for
racism and fascism is a way of losing
that argument for the vast majority of
people in this country. So these
political choices couldn't be more
important.
>> And I just finally how do you how do you
bring everyone together at the end of
this kahinda?
>> I mean it's I think it's really
important to say like the idea that you
can't wave the British flag or the
English flag is completely nonsensical.
We just we had the coronation. We have
the football. Those flags are
everywhere. We are talking about a very
specific use of the flags which has a
long history in this country of being
racist and exclusionary. And that is
clearly what is happening today. And so
if you're honestly saying we want to
have a debate about Britishness and
moving forward, you have to understand
what is happening with these flags and
it is clearly problematic and clearly
needs to be stopped. That will then give
you the opportunity to have a
conversation. But this is about
intimidation and to to to think it is
not is a is to ignore all the history of
racism in this country. Kahinda Andrews
and John Denim. I'm afraid we have to
leave it there, but thank you so much
both of you.